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Old 08-12-2017, 03:47 PM   #201
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

Ned's even supposed to have feuded briefly with Robert after seeing how everything was going down in KL; I think that's part of the reason why Ned's in charge of the mopping up phase of the war, lifting the Storm's End siege while bringing the Tyrells back into the realm, and of course, making for the Tower of Joy.

When Ned's party reaches the Tower, there's some implication he's already figured out Lyanna's pregnant/married to Rhaegar, since the Kingsguard would otherwise have sought out Dany and Viserys instead of fighting to the death there.

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Old 08-12-2017, 08:38 PM   #202
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

Ned held too closely his honor, especially in regards to Jaime. He killed his king but he did it to prevent the massacre of thousands of innocents.

The Mountain definitely should have died, but he had the protection of Tywin Lannister.

I feel there's never enough said about how honorable a man Ned was.

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Old 08-12-2017, 10:19 PM   #203
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

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Ned held too closely his honor, especially in regards to Jaime. He killed his king but he did it to prevent the massacre of thousands of innocents.

The Mountain definitely should have died, but he had the protection of Tywin Lannister.

I feel there's never enough said about how honorable a man Ned was.
Actually, one of my favorite character complexities was why Jaimie got seen as an opportunistic Kingslayer in spite of being quite capable of proving why his actions could be justified and unconnected to any plot by Tywin. Jaimie had every reason in the world to expose the wyldfire plot, but his pride, his PTSD from serving under Aerys, something made him not only keep his mouth shut but climb up the steps and sit on the Iron Throne.

Maybe he just reached his limit with all the pomp, ceremony, oaths and rules about being a Knight in a corrupt kingdom, and simply chose the most obnoxious path he could as his way of flipping off the universe for making him party to murder, rapine, and tyranny, for seeing all his heroes and idols exposed as complacent enablers, for twisting all his dreams of knighthood into a cruel joke. But it was still his choice to find the most guilty way to look in the throne room and keep quiet about why he did what he did.

"By what right does the wolf judge the lion?" By the right of the lion's silence while presiding over a savaged city and a castle of dead women and children. Even if the lion is presiding over the city because he prevented the greatest tragedy and was helpless to stop the lesser.

And that single decision is arguably the biggest reason why Ned, and most of Westeros, gave up on Jaimie.

As to Ned's honor, I think it pays to analyze it as being a bit less a thing of pride and reputation and far more a result of compassion, altruism, responsibility, and Northern pragmatism. Southern lords are almost naturally and inevitably more inclined towards the more shadowy and deceptive politics and hypocritical social mores, because they can afford it. The North can't; when Winter finally arrives there, everyone starves and dies if they don't get their act together and cooperate along a common set of values, if they don't agree to make sacrifices so that the kingdom continues. Winterfell as capital makes sense when you examine what makes it the perfect shelter in the books: heating from the hot springs, a protected garden that can grow food even in winter, and an infrastructure designed to host thousands in years-long cold and darkness.

The Stark honor is about that system, and that's why Ned, in some ways, simply can't operate in the South. If lords order of the deaths of innocent children, can you trust them when the choice comes between letting the future starve or walking yourself out into the cold to spare them some food? If sworn protectors kill their charges seemingly with only selfish reasons, can you count them to put the good of the nation above their own? If your best friend accepts a bloody crown and bellows for the death of an entire family that you now find you have kin with, what does your reputation mean if it's either that or raising your nephew?

Cersei, Robert, everyone in Kingslanding is playing a game with extremely expendable pieces, and Ned's title and responsibilities as a Stark run counter to that. To the Starks of Winterfell, there's no such thing as expendable; there's just necessary, and often painful and regrettable, sacrifices.

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Old 08-13-2017, 01:34 PM   #204
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

I think it was a self-inflicted punishment, if possibly unconsciously. He stood by a did nothing, like a good kinsguard, when Rickard and Brandon were murdered, and when Aerys abused his wife.

And to have tolerated that, only to ultimately break his most sacred vow anyway and become a kingslayer... I think one part of why Jamie did nothing to stop people thinking he was a piece of **** was that he, on some level, thinks he deserves it.

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Old 08-13-2017, 02:00 PM   #205
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

Eastwatch aires in 7 hours!

I can't decide if this season is going too fast, or if time is passing too slowly --especially the wait between episodes -ugh!


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Old 08-13-2017, 02:02 PM   #206
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

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I think it was a self-inflicted punishment, if possibly unconsciously. He stood by a did nothing, like a good kinsguard, when Rickard and Brandon were murdered, and when Aerys abused his wife.

And to have tolerated that, only to ultimately break his most sacred vow anyway and become a kingslayer... I think one part of why Jamie did nothing to stop people thinking he was a piece of **** was that he, on some level, thinks he deserves it.
Which is what would make the irony of him having to do it again, to his own sister/lover no less, all the more appropriate. Only this time, the self-loathing isn't there because he's grown as a person.

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Old 08-13-2017, 03:30 PM   #207
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

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Eastwatch aires in 7 hours!

I can't decide if this season is going too fast, or if time is passingly too slowly --especially the wait between episodes -ugh!
Both.

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Old 08-13-2017, 05:39 PM   #208
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

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Both.
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Old 08-13-2017, 05:50 PM   #209
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

I really hope that dagger ends up being Dark Sister. (yeah I know it's a sword in the books) The name would fit Arya to a tee. And Visenya was a hero of hers.

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Old 08-13-2017, 08:23 PM   #210
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

No.

But hey, at least you didn't post spoilers as theories this time.

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:04 PM   #211
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

Haha, classic Bronn.

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:05 PM   #212
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

Huh. Either armor doesn't weigh that much or Bronn has been working out between seasons.

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:06 PM   #213
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

Everyone needs a friend like Bronn.

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:06 PM   #214
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

Dany obviously heard the recent debate here lol. Nice speech.

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:10 PM   #215
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

Or maybe not!

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:11 PM   #216
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

Got everyone's attention, though.

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:15 PM   #217
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

Jon's good with CGI animals.

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:16 PM   #218
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

Do Targarians have a special smell?

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:20 PM   #219
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

id like to think they smell like marshmallows.

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:20 PM   #220
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

Okay, how did Jorah get to Dragonstone or even know that Dany would be there? Did he read the script in advance?

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:21 PM   #221
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

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id like to think they smell like marshmallows.
Before or after they get roasted?

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:22 PM   #222
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

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Okay, how did Jorah get to Dragonstone or even know that Dany would be there? Did he read the script in advance?
Leaks.

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:24 PM   #223
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

He was at the citadel lol... he asked about Dany earlier this season and I am sure word spread that she was in Westeros and where.

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:24 PM   #224
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Okay, how did Jorah get to Dragonstone or even know that Dany would be there? Did he read the script in advance?
Doesn't the Citadel know everything? He may have heard before he left.

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:27 PM   #225
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Default Re: Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

Ahh I kind of forgot they were his father and brother.

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