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Old 08-02-2017, 08:42 PM   #51
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

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This idea is stupid at ibest and extremely harmful at the absolute worst. There are Black and African-American people still living this reality on a daily basis in this country right now. Why do we continuously have to show black lives and bodies terrorized and brutalized in order for white people to understand that we're humans who deserve the same rights as everyone else.

It's not about being a SJW (which is dumb word to begin with) black people are just exhausted at this crap. If people don't get it at this point they never will or they purposefully don't want to get it or understand.
What makes you think this is going to glamorize the Confederacy any more than The Man in High Castle glamorizes the Third Reich (i.e. it doesn't)? It sounds like this is going to be a pretty gritty exploration of how slavery evolved into modern times, had the Confederacy successfully split from the Union, as well as the other historical ramifications of that. This isn't glorifying the institution of slavery.

Slavery happened. The Confederacy happened. These are dark parts of our country's history. Exploring them in depth, through fiction, teaches us about how culture, our heritage, and our mistakes. It also lets us tie the themes and issues of the historical period to those of today to reflect how we have grown or how we are repeating our mistakes as a species.

Your post just comes off as incredibly closed-minded to me.

As have all articles I read criticizing this concept (not even a show, but the very concept). One that I loved was an article criticizing this show as "another gem from the producers of the least diverse show on television, Game of Thrones." Uhhh...Really?

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Old 08-03-2017, 02:37 PM   #52
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

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What makes you think this is going to glamorize the Confederacy any more than The Man in High Castle glamorizes the Third Reich (i.e. it doesn't)? It sounds like this is going to be a pretty gritty exploration of how slavery evolved into modern times, had the Confederacy successfully split from the Union, as well as the other historical ramifications of that. This isn't glorifying the institution of slavery.
It's not about glamorizing the Confederacy.

The problem is that it detaches the causes and results around black slavery from everyday ideals that stretch back centuries through colonialism and places it onto the Confederacy that lasted 4 years. It's how people can lay blame about the South being totally racist with the Mississippi Burning/KKK imagery yet those postcards of black bodies swinging from trees in Minnesota or Illinois where no person is wearing a white hood were passed around like trading cards.

Movies/sci-fi that give alternate realities of Nazism don't lay the blame for anti-Semitism at the hands of the Nazis or even explore the racism that created. They explore the moral implications of their fascism on everyone. (The whole idea of the do you kill baby Hitler has nothing to do with stopping anti-Semitism or even saving lives. It rest on your belief about morals for punishing someone for crimes in a larger context.)

I don't have a problem with people being interest, cause as someone who was raised in the South, the way we as a country continue to talk about the Confederacy is messed up and this show is just exposing it.



Let's be honest, the main thing that is Hollywood attractive about the Confederacy and Nazis is the imagery. The flags, the old plantations, the Antebellum/Southern "otherness" of manners.

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Old 08-04-2017, 10:26 AM   #53
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

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The controversy is liberal McCarthyism. Look, I'm left leaning and the left and Democrats are the best possible thing, but right now it's pissing me the **** off with petty stuff like this. There comes a point where it's like people are just looking to pick fights. You have to choose your battles.

Things are so tense right now, it can get out of control on both sides where even the slightest thing sets people off and they get defensive. I get we're living in tumultuous times and we have to fight, but that doesn't mean we have to act like unreasonable idiots. Otherwise we're no better than who we're criticizing, I don't care how good intentioned you are.
Yeah, I kind of agree with this. I'm pretty far to the left politically but the "safe space" jokes the right likes to throw at liberals is definitely not without some roots in truth. I have definitely caught myself rolling my eyes at various friends opinions in the last few months who too easily get riled up over something that is not even borderline controversial.

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Old 08-04-2017, 11:11 AM   #54
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

Given these showrunner's previous work, I have little confidence that they can handle this well. They're not good at those important details, and they freely sacrifice logic for the sake of trying to make their plot work (instead of having said plot unfold logically).

And I DREAD how they'll handle all of the horrific stuff associate with slavery. They really don't handle sensitive stuff like that well at all.

Also the premise is absurd, even as an AU scenario. It makes Man in the High Castle look positively plausible by comparison (and that story was written decades ago).

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Old 08-04-2017, 11:21 AM   #55
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

Personally as a black man I am tried of our race getting upset over projects like this but are ok with rappers using the n word in their songs or other black people just going around using the n word. Honestly I think we just need to better ourselves as a race before we can even begin to complain about a TV show. I also think that it is wrong that this nation is trying to just erase all traces of the south and it's history or past instead of confronting it and talking about it and teaching people about it.

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Old 08-04-2017, 12:01 PM   #56
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

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Personally as a black man I am tried of our race getting upset over projects like this but are ok with rappers using the n word in their songs or other black people just going around using the n word. Honestly I think we just need to better ourselves as a race before we can even begin to complain about a TV show. I also think that it is wrong that this nation is trying to just erase all traces of the south and it's history or past instead of confronting it and talking about it and teaching people about it.
Let's get something straight.

We are just now in 2017 getting a statue to Maggie Walker dedicated. A businesswoman who contributed to her country and started her own business.

But we have countless statues to a group who actively revolted against our country and killed millions of their own like heroes.

The Nazis invented the modern Olympics but we don't stop and have a "Heil, Hitler" just to be honest about his achievement.

No one is trying to erase traces of the South. If we are going to be honest about it, there wouldn't be imagery glorifying an act of rebellion for a way of life that subjugated another race of people. Some people don't want to be honest about that history is the real problem. Twisting it into version of the Boston Tea Party is a joke.

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Old 08-04-2017, 12:02 PM   #57
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

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Given these showrunner's previous work, I have little confidence that they can handle this well. They're not good at those important details, and they freely sacrifice logic for the sake of trying to make their plot work (instead of having said plot unfold logically).

And I DREAD how they'll handle all of the horrific stuff associate with slavery. They really don't handle sensitive stuff like that well at all.

Also the premise is absurd, even as an AU scenario. It makes Man in the High Castle look positively plausible by comparison (and that story was written decades ago).
Why are we getting caught up on absurdity? So is The Handmaiden's Tale by that logic. It's called alternative history for a reason.

Just in general with all this (not aimed at you), depiction is not endorsement. Both sides can't seem to understand this at times. This show is already doing the job is starting debate, but shutting something down isn't the answer just because it's sensitive. This same argument is used by conservatives when they want to see something taken away like when Christians were protesting Last Temptation of Christ. It's the same damn thing. The lack of self awareness to the hypocrisy is astounding. Just because you have the intent of social justice on your side doesn't automatically make you an exception to being misguided.

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Old 08-04-2017, 12:09 PM   #58
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

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Let's get something straight.

We are just now in 2017 getting a statue to Maggie Walker dedicated. A businesswoman who contributed to her country and started her own business.

But we have countless statues to a group who actively revolted against our country and killed millions of their own like heroes.

The Nazis invented the modern Olympics but we don't stop and have a "Heil, Hitler" just to be honest about his achievement.

No one is trying to erase traces of the South. If we are going to be honest about it, there wouldn't be imagery glorifying an act of rebellion for a way of life that subjugated another race of people. Some people don't want to be honest about that history is the real problem. Twisting it into version of the Boston Tea Party is a joke.
Yes they are trying to erase it or you wouldn't see them taking down statues or trying to change street names and schools. Some of the Generals like Robert E Lee may not have even believed in some of the ideas of the South but fought for them out of the since of duty to his home state and people still are calling him a raciest and want his statues taken down. Hell they called for the Dukes of Hazard to be taken off of TV just because of the General Lee and the flag on top of the car.

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Old 08-04-2017, 12:16 PM   #59
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

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Originally Posted by _Superman_;35578277[B
]Yes they are trying to erase it or you wouldn't see them taking down statues or trying to change street names and schools.[/B] .
Nah. Why would you want a school named after someone's who only contribution to the country was upholding a terrible way of life?

The Founding Fathers were slave owners, but they also created the documents ideas we still fight to uphold today. Teddy Roosevelt's face is on a national monument cause he believed in protecting the environment we enjoy today. He also killed a crap ton of foreigners for "ugh" reasons.

No one is saying that having people with complex and even ugly histories disbars them from having schools or monuments.

What exactly are these Confederate generals celebrated for?


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Originally Posted by _Superman_;35578277[B
]Some of the Generals like Robert E Lee may not have even believed in some of the ideas of the South but fought for them out of the since of duty to his home state and people still are calling him a raciest and want his statues taken down. Hell they called for the Dukes of Hazard to be taken off of TV just because of the General Lee and the flag on top of the car.
So you're arguing in favor of someone who was just going with the flow?

So someone like McCarthy is "a patriot" protecting his country and way of life from foreigners should get his statue?

No one should be skipping over 1860-1865. But how we teach it is important. And when we do, these "generals" won't be celebrated.

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Old 08-04-2017, 12:20 PM   #60
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

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Why are we getting caught up on absurdity? So is The Handmaiden's Tale by that logic. It's called alternative history for a reason.

Just in general with all this (not aimed at you), depiction is not endorsement. Both sides can't seem to understand this at times. This show is already doing the job is starting debate, but shutting something down isn't the answer just because it's sensitive. This same argument is used by conservatives when they want to see something taken away like when Christians were protesting Last Temptation of Christ. It's the same damn thing. The lack of self awareness to the hypocrisy is astounding. Just because you have the intent of social justice on your side doesn't automatically make you an exception to being misguided.
Alternative history has to have an certain logic to it still. The Handmaiden's Tale does, this does not. This would never happen, even under any circumstances.

And I said it as clearly as I can, I don't trust these guys to be able to pull this off well. Nothing in their previous work gives me any confidence that they can.

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Old 08-04-2017, 12:25 PM   #61
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

Once again, the subject matter is not one that I trust the people who gave use "sexposition" to handle well.

I loved Harry Turtledove's series on this, so it isn't the subject matter.

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Old 08-04-2017, 12:28 PM   #62
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

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Nah. Why would you want a school named after someone's who only contribution to the country was upholding a terrible way of life?

The Founding Fathers were slave owners, but they also created the documents ideas we still fight to uphold today. Teddy Roosevelt's face is on a national monument cause he believed in protecting the environment we enjoy today. He also killed a crap ton of foreigners for "ugh" reasons.

No one is saying that having people with complex and even ugly histories disbars them from having schools or monuments.

What exactly are these Confederate generals celebrated for?




So you're arguing in favor of someone who was just going with the flow?

So someone like McCarthy is "a patriot" protecting his country and way of life from foreigners should get his statue?

No one should be skipping over 1860-1865. But how we teach it is important. And when we do, these "generals" won't be celebrated.
And I not saying they should be celebrated but I am also saying that we don't need to tare down statues and change names of things that have been around for years. For example MLK and Malcolm X have said many bad things about White people and yet we celebrate them. The founding fathers were slave owners and we celebrate them. I am not saying we celebrate the southern generals or anything like that but I am saying you can teach things without teaching hate.

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Old 08-04-2017, 12:30 PM   #63
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

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Alternative history has to have an certain logic to it still. The Handmaiden's Tale does, this does not. This would never happen, even under any circumstances.

And I said it as clearly as I can, I don't trust these guys to be able to pull this off well. Nothing in their previous work gives me any confidence that they can.
I think this could be pulled off if you do it in the man in the high castle type of way.

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Old 08-04-2017, 12:59 PM   #64
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

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And I not saying they should be celebrated but I am also saying that we don't need to tare down statues and change names of things that have been around for years. For example MLK and Malcolm X have said many bad things about White people and yet we celebrate them. The founding fathers were slave owners and we celebrate them. I am not saying we celebrate the southern generals or anything like that but I am saying you can teach things without teaching hate.
I'm not saying anything about teaching hate. I said if we talk about them honestly we won't want statues or schools named after them.

We teach McCarthyism for exactly what it was. A cautionary tale and shameful act that ruined lives.

I grew up in the shadow of these statues in Vicksburg MS. The pivotal supply line that broke the Confederacy. There are statues to these guys and you know what isn't inscribed on those bronze statues.

General Confederate here lost the battle of Vicksburg by getting outmaneuvered and getting thousands of his men killed and ensuring the Conferderacy upholding slavery would fail. THANKS for losing.

You don't need to remove the cannons or battlefield markers. Just be honest and people won't want them there.

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Old 08-04-2017, 01:23 PM   #65
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

Is it bad that someday I want to see a alt-history civil war story where it's the Union that gets the quick win, instead of all these hypothesis where the South manages to pull out a victory? Like one where Lee takes the offer for Union command and has to take on Jackson and Longstreet? Or one where Grant is stationed in the East and rises to supplant McClellan much faster?

I know they're long shots, but so is any scenario where the UK actively supports the South on a material level after the Emancipation Proclamation.

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Old 08-04-2017, 01:57 PM   #66
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

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I'm not saying anything about teaching hate. I said if we talk about them honestly we won't want statues or schools named after them.

We teach McCarthyism for exactly what it was. A cautionary tale and shameful act that ruined lives.

I grew up in the shadow of these statues in Vicksburg MS. The pivotal supply line that broke the Confederacy. There are statues to these guys and you know what isn't inscribed on those bronze statues.

General Confederate here lost the battle of Vicksburg by getting outmaneuvered and getting thousands of his men killed and ensuring the Conferderacy upholding slavery would fail. THANKS for losing.

You don't need to remove the cannons or battlefield markers. Just be honest and people won't want them there.
You're right but also you know what isn't on Abe Lincoln monument here in DC. You don't have inscribe up there the man who wanted to send all the black people back to Africa or give the Haiti. We don't talk about how almost every president before the Civil war was a slave owner. Yet we still sing their praises. We don't talk about how it was debated before we even got our independence that we should end slavery and most of them said no to that. All I am saying is we shouldn't tear down history. Nor was everyone who fought for the south bad people. I just think with everything going on today the timing for this show might be wrong but I don't think this show is a bad idea.

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Old 08-04-2017, 03:24 PM   #67
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

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You're right but also you know what isn't on Abe Lincoln monument here in DC. You don't have inscribe up there the man who wanted to send all the black people back to Africa or give the Haiti. We don't talk about how almost every president before the Civil war was a slave owner. Yet we still sing their praises. We don't talk about how it was debated before we even got our independence that we should end slavery and most of them said no to that. All I am saying is we shouldn't tear down history. Nor was everyone who fought for the south bad people. I just think with everything going on today the timing for this show might be wrong but I don't think this show is a bad idea.
Sorry for late reply I'm at work.

I already answered your Abe Lincoln quote with the Teddy scenario . We don't need perfect men or women to be monuments. Teddy Rodevelts BiG Stick policy set forth a century of ugly attitudes towards South America. He also saved our countries environment for decades with his policy.

What are the Confederates influence in positives in today's world?

I'm not advocating for tearing anything down. I said teach it the correct way. Honestly. Don't make the Battle of Vicksburg akin to the Battle of Normandy. We don't make the failure of the Nazis to reach Russia as a bunch of swell guys who got unlucky with the frozen temps.


I'm all for alternate reality but I would like for us to deal with ours honestly first. In a world of fake news and alternative facts as cushions for people not to want to be honest about what is happening. I understand people's trepidation about a project that further fantasizes reality.

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Old 08-04-2017, 03:37 PM   #68
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

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And I not saying they should be celebrated but I am also saying that we don't need to tare down statues and change names of things that have been around for years. For example MLK and Malcolm X have said many bad things about White people and yet we celebrate them. The founding fathers were slave owners and we celebrate them. I am not saying we celebrate the southern generals or anything like that but I am saying you can teach things without teaching hate.
The one in New Orleans about the revolt against post-Reconstruction stuff really did need to be torn down, as it was a monument to white supremacy.

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Old 08-12-2017, 12:54 AM   #69
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

Seeing the Charlottesville stuff right now and feeling really quite certain that this show doesn't need to exist right now, and probably for a very long time to come.

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Old 08-12-2017, 01:37 AM   #70
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

Yeah, I will be shocked if this doesn't get swept under the rug...

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Old 08-12-2017, 06:18 AM   #71
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

The best alternate history stories are the ones based on reasonable changes and plausible outcomes. A Western world country where slavery still exists in the 21st century is as plausible as Kim Jong-un becoming the lead vocalist of Iron Maiden.

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Old 08-12-2017, 04:48 PM   #72
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After today, I think this should go straight to development hell.

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Old 08-12-2017, 05:57 PM   #73
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

A piece of art is a piece of art. This will definitely cause a lot of heat, but don't cancel it because it'll be too dangerous being blamed for inciting incidents. It's not the way to handle the problem. Cancelling art is the easy solution to a much bigger problem that isn't being addressed. Charlottsville and what's happening is the main issue, not stuff like this. Holding this stuff back contributes to the explosiveness. You can't sweep things under the rug because sooner or later, it'll get worse. It's where art can help.


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Old 08-12-2017, 06:18 PM   #74
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After today, I think this should go straight to development hell.
I am confused by this attitude. Wouldn't all this stuff show exactly why this show should exist?

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Old 08-12-2017, 08:31 PM   #75
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Default Re: HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama from David Benioff & Dan Weiss

Except we are talking about the pair who gave us sexposition. I don't trust the pair to make a show that isn't just going to try to be as shocking as possible. Which is not needed.

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