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#51 |
"You got heart, kid"
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 4,456
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Yes this is my concern as well, its unfair that Whedon gets so much hate when a couple of years ago he was getting as much praise as the Russos are getting now.
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#52 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Asgard
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SM2 is still a masterpiece in the CBM genre,no doubt about it.
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#53 |
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,019
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Kev Fiege said it's one of the greats too
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#54 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Ultimately, I can only imagine that the vitriol directed towards the Russo's would be even more violent than what is currently being thrown at Whedon, due to them being signed on for Infinity War 1+2. |
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#55 |
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,019
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But like it's common nowadays for sequels to be even better than the first movie. So only normal people were expecting even better.
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#56 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2015
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It's common with non-MCU superhero franchises, like Raimi's Spiderman and Nolan's Batman, but not with the MCU. So far, Marvel has only managed to make one sequel (Winter Soldier) that is widely believed to be better than its predecessor. IM 2+3 and TDW are generally considered to be inferior to IM and Thor respectively. And anyway, WS was the sequel to a film that was met by a lukewarm response upon release, and failed to even make 400 million dollars. Therefore, it wasn't hyped anywhere near as much as AoU and people did not set themselves up for disappointment. Meanwhile, Civil War, coming off the back of WS will face a very difficult task of surpassing its predecessor.
Last edited by Fosterson; 07-10-2015 at 10:31 AM. |
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#57 |
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2014
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Rami's Spider-Man, Nolan's Batman, X-Men, all got better sequels. Didn't matter that Thor's or Iron Man's were weaker. There was still big hope that Avengers sequel could be better, even if Winter Soldier had not been more awesome.
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#58 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Cheam, Surrey, UK
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Whedon has delivered on both the Avengers films commercially from a director most studios wouldn't / hadn't touched with a barge pole previously.
He knew the 'constraints' of a studio size blockbuster going into the situation. I'm not sure where people are coming from when they say AoU is a 'failure', I've not seen it yet, so cannot comment on it's quality in comparison to the first Avengers film but box office of nearly $1.4 billion would suggest it's popularity and appeal. To be honest, I'm certain Marvel execs are not at home thinking 'I wonder what Joss thinks of me', they are too busy having a bath in $$$ bills. |
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#59 |
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2014
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No way is AOU a failure. Not with money or even with critics. Even though it didn't score near as high as Avengers did. It didn't get a rotten rating.
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#60 |
Mod of Thunder
SHH! Global Moderator
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Yeah I read something to that effect. It was a big hit but a mega failure at the same time. I loved it That's all I care about, but I still want to see the FULL movie
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#61 |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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How was it a "mega failure"? By your logic, from now on every MCU film that makes less than 1.5 billion should be considered a failure.
Last edited by Fosterson; 07-11-2015 at 06:12 AM. |
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#62 |
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Yes, it does because it shows that MS are crap at making sequels (with the exception of TWS). What Nolan, Raimi and Singer were able to do is completely irrelevant as none of those individuals have any input whatsoever at Marvel Studios. Besides, AoU was hyped up far more than X2, Spider-Man 2 or TDK prior to release. All of those films were only massively hyped after they were released. The weight on AoU's shoulders was immense (far greater than those three films) and despite being amazing, it was considered "not good enough" by critics and the GA.
Last edited by Fosterson; 07-11-2015 at 06:11 AM. |
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#63 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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The hype and expectation for AoU was really high. Avengers was a highly anticipated movie that delivered in a huge way and the follow-up had the same director who understood the characters and had the creative vision to deliver on the Ultron story line. It was entertaining, it made money, but it had problems in execution, so it was deemed a letdown. Thing is that in the MCU, the franchise follow-ups carry the burden of continuing established characters while setting up the story for future movies according to the master plan. I expect this will be an on-going challenge for future entries where the main character has already been introduced into the MCU. But I think that Civil War expectations may not be as high as AoU. The Cap franchise started out as somewhat quaint and continued as solidly grounded. The next one does seem pretty bloated so far, and it does seem to be playing set up to future IW, Black Panther and Spiderman movies as much as it is telling its own story. But I think the hard-core audience might have learned a lesson from the hype of AoU and I sense guarded optimism, at least from this forum. I also expect the Russos and Disney/Marvel are aware of the problems with AoU (both in storytelling and hype) and will take some care with this production. CW doesn't have to garner superior critical or financial success, it just has to maintain quality with a few memorable scenes and -- most importantly -- no bad ones or major plot holes. I also think that marketing efforts will be very different and less sensational as those for AoU. Last edited by Stevie2020; 07-11-2015 at 12:36 PM. |
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#64 |
SHHFFL 2014 Champion
SHH! Global Moderator
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It happens to all great CBM directors. Raimi was loved on here prior to SM3. Only one who hasn't been eaten alive seems to be Nolan. Singer had to win everyone back with DoFP after Superman Returns.
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Rating MCU films: Iron Man - 4/5, The Incredible Hulk - 4/5, Iron Man 2 - 3/5, Thor - 4/5, Captain America: The First Avenger - 5/5, The Avengers - 5/5, Iron Man 3 - 3.5/5, Thor: The Dark World - 3.5/5, Captain America: The Winter Soldier - 5/5, Guardians of the Galaxy - 4.5/5, Avengers: Age of Ultron - 4.5/5, Ant-Man - 4/5, Captain America: Civil War - 5/5, Dr. Strange - 4/5, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 - 5/5, Spider-Man: Homecoming - 5/5, Thor: Ragnarok - 5/5, Black Panther - 5/5 Spider-Man 3 is a good movie. Yes. I said it RIP Vartha :csad: |
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#65 |
Not a Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2012
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Honestly, IMO? The only reason Nolan hasn't been eaten alive by the fans yet is because DC has yet to have a single clearly good movie without him. The moment they release a decent movie that doesn't have his name on it? Nolan's getting thrown to the dogs. There have already been rumblings in that direction anyway, following the casting of Ben Affleck as Batman, with talk about how the "real" Batman should have a long list of properties, that coincidentally go against Nolan's portrayal.
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#66 | |
No, I am not Calvin Ellis
Join Date: Mar 2015
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#67 | |
Yvonne Strahotski <3
Join Date: Dec 2011
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"This is NOT the comics. There WON'T be a Batman IV, there will be a reboot." - Nevincer "Films are worth seeing period, even the bad ones." - Blue Sugar |
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#68 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2013
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Not saying the Russos won't be able to pull it off but I find the recent lack of fan gratitude towards Whedon a little irksome. Marvel apparently trusts the Russos immensely since they've in essence handed the reins to the entire MCU over to them by giving them three of their most important films which I think is fascinating. Marvel has never committed to any director on this scale before. |
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#69 |
Shaper Savant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: United States
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I will say, with everything that happened with Whedon in the past few months, I was completely 100% on his side.
Since he said all that stuff about the directors cut, "I'm too lazy," and "no one's interested" I've been kicked off the horse. That's some bull. That's not the movie he wanted to release and its obvious. And of COURSE people are interested. just look at the sales on DoFP Rogue Cut. Disney and Whedon would be idiots to not release it.
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Black Panther 8.5 | Avengers: Infinity War X.X | Deadpool 2 X.X | Ant-Man and the Wasp X.X | X-Men: Dark Phoenix X.X | Venom X.X | Aquaman X.X Tradition is just dead people's baggage. |
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#70 | |
Cyclone Cookie Tosser
Join Date: Apr 2014
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Other characters like BW, Fury, Sam, Bucky and Pierce were fleshed out and relevant but they were there to ultimately not only serve the story but Steve as a character. That's why CW as filled as it is with name supporting actors and characters is still a Captain America movie and not an Avengers movie. In TWS or CW unlike the Avengers movies there is no need to juggle 6-10 characters who are all supposed to have their "arc" or there's humongous complaining by fans and probably actors and agents. If Whedon didn't have to have a Thor arc they never would have done the cave bit to begin with and struggle with all the edits etc. If Whedon didn't feel like he had to serve Avengers who didn't have solo movies then an emphasis wouldn't have needed to be on Hawkeye, Banner and Nat while also trying to juggle the Big Three and introduce 3 new Avengers. It's an entirely different beast. Last edited by TalismanRing; 07-17-2015 at 06:48 AM. |
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#71 | |
Cyclone Cookie Tosser
Join Date: Apr 2014
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#72 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2015
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That said, I'm definitely optimistic about the Russo's chances. I personally think it'll be cool to be able to compare Whedon's Avengers movies and the Russo's Avengers films. |
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#73 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jan 2015
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Its not about the amount of time on screen but what the character does when they appear and this is what Whedon got wrong in AoU (but did well in Avengers). Fury didn't appear that much in TWS but his car chase scene with Bucky was brilliant. Zolas short scene was also great, and Rumlow didn't appear much but was very memorable. Marvel & Whedon needed to make tough choices for AoU but the only role reduced was Thors (and this was only following negative early screening reactions). If the Russo's are prepared to take the same approach in CW & IW then I think these movies will be good. My only request is that the Russo's consult James Gunn about any space scenes as he has been responsible for creating this corner of the MCU. |
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#74 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Dec 2011
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Watchmen got decent reviews and Nolan's clout wasn't affected one iota.
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#75 |
Newbie
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Grayslake, IL
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I was disappointed by Ultron and ultimately wish that he had passed the torch on directing it and come back for Infinity Wars refreshed. It was a mistake of him to push 2 of these in a row. He nailed the first one, so the second really came off as a letdown. I don't know why he started venting publicly.
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